Question:
ok, yeah another pet food thing

just read the thread about cat food treats and it got me thinking about us and what we do to our pets..i understand and respect people who have issue with meat eating and choose to be veg*an themselves..that is 100% ok, your life, your choice, your values...

but, why enforce that on an animal who is an obligatory carnivore? we make them unnatural enough with our selective breeding, and the way we raise them...why not just respect the fact that cats eat meat..it's what they do, it's what they need...

i'm not talking to anyone in particular here, though i'm sure there will be hurt feelings and stuff..but i'm thinking in the past i recall a poster who said they can't stand the idea of feeding their pet meat..

if you are that turned off by meat at all, then don't own a meat eating animal. it's just that simple..don't torture the ones you have by forcing them into an unnatural eating pattern. the jury is out on humans and what we are supposed to eat..my personal opinion is that we are natural omnivores, scavengers...but i could very well be wrong on that, and i'm not going to try to force my own belief on another..

however, scientific proof stands that dogs and cats REQUIRE meat to survive and be healthy. there are plenty of animals out there that don't have the meat requirement in their diet that can be pets...

i'm sorry if i hurt feelings here, but it was just irking me and i couldn't let it go *sigh*


Answer:
Jami, here's a related thread that you might find interesting: http://www.pets-on-the-net.com/forum...ight=vegan+cat


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I agree with that. It's a human's choice to eat meat or to not eat meat. But it shouldn't be forced on a pet who requires it. And to decide for them that they don't is also wrong.


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I used to feel as it seems most people feel about this subject. I used to think that a cat needs meat and it would be cruel to enforce a vegan diet on them. We humans have a choice, whereas a cat is at the mercy of their human's whims.

However. The research I'm doing seems to suggest that the idea that a cat absolutely must be fed food containing meat is not necessarily accurate. True, switching a cat to a vegan diet is trickier than switching a dog, because a cat's nutritional requirements and its ability to process nutrients from alternate sources is more complicated. But I'm beginning to believe that if the diet is carefully planned with strict attention given to meeting each nutritional requirement and the pet's health is monitored, not only is there no harm in it but it just might actually be better for them. It seems to be expensive and quite a bit of work, but it seems 'doable'.

I don't agree with the concept that it's automatically cruel to force a cat to do what's unnatural for them. In that case, to avoid such cruelty, it follows that we would need to let loose prey - such as birds and rodents - in our house for our cats to hunt, kill and consume; that we would need to feed them food full of byproducts such as beaks, feet and bones, since this is what they would eat in the "wild"; that we would need to let them run free outside with no vaccinations, to run the risk of catching a disease or getting run over by cars. That's an extreme view, but really, where do we draw the line? Some people draw the line at confining their cats indoors, some people at forcing them to get needles every year, some people at refusing to feed them food with byproducts that would occur in their natural diet. An argument could be made that the unnatural things we enforce upon our cats are for their own good. Yet some people use this very reason for switching their companion animals to a vegan diet -- it is for their own good (keep in mind that a vegan diet is not chosen only for reasons of compassion but also for reasons of health). So why exactly are they automatically wrong?

We have to also keep in mind that at one time (although even these days of the 21st century) people believed (and some still do, strangely enough ) that humans absolutely must have meat in their diet. A co-worker of mine was told by a health care practitioner about 20 years ago that her decision to raise her children vegetarian was tantamount to abuse. The reasoning of the day was that humans, particularly children, need meat and dairy in their diet and to deprive them of their "natural requirements" was cruel and unusual. But she knew better than that. She raised her children on a vegetarian diet, paying close attention to their nutritional needs, and they grew up strong, healthy and well-adjusted. So much for that particular theory.

I suppose I'll get flamed for this, but to be honest, I'm considering somewhere down the road switching my cats to a vegan diet. Will that mean that I'm stupid, that I hate my cats, that I don't care about their health, and want to abuse and/or neglect them? No, it doesn't. It means that I'm challenging established theories and research. I'm going to research the hell out of the subject, track down some people to get personal stories for 'pros and cons', become more informed on what nutrients my cats need and why, and how best to give it to them so they stay at optimum health and strength. In the end, I might decide not to do it. But again, I might decide to go ahead with it. It all depends on my conclusions at the end of my research and interviews with people who personally feed their cats a vegan diet. I won't do it until I'm 100% certain that it won't be detrimental to my cats. If you want to think I'm stupid and cruel, be my guest. It doesn't automatically mean that you're right.

There, that's my two cents worth


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I didnt know beaks, feet and bones were full of by products?


Answer:
Yup, the beaks, feet and bones are some of the byproducts found in commercial brands. Chicken heads, feet, intestines...cows tongues, fetal tissue, brains, etc...when you get into "meat byproducts" it's really dodgy - the pet food company can't even tell you what kind of "meat" it is. Then you get into the rendering plants that use rotting meat, euthanized pets, roadkill, etc. Some people are horrified at the idea of feeding their pets food that came from rendering plants, while others don't seem to mind.


Answer:
Bridget, I find nothing wrong with feeding a vegan diet if you are meeting the nutritional requirements of your cats. Just the fact that most of us feed kibble is totally unnatural for a cat. And it is having a major impact on health. FLUTD is one of the most common ailments in cats and it is likely caused by the convenience of kibble.

Just out of curiousity, if you did switch your cats to a vegan diet, how would you compensate for the taurine...or has your research shown that they do not need it? And what type of food would you feed? I know that Wysong makes a vegan formula but would you feed that? Or would it be more of a raw diet?


Answer:
Originally Posted by Banshee
We have to also keep in mind that at one time (although even these days of the 21st century) people believed (and some still do, strangely enough ) that humans absolutely must have meat in their diet. A co-worker of mine was told by a health care practitioner about 20 years ago that her decision to raise her children vegetarian was tantamount to abuse. The reasoning of the day was that humans, particularly children, need meat and dairy in their diet and to deprive them of their "natural requirements" was cruel and unusual. But she knew better than that. She raised her children on a vegetarian diet, paying close attention to their nutritional needs, and they grew up strong, healthy and well-adjusted. So much for that particular theory.
i actually still believe this...i mean, i don't think it is impossible to be healthy and veg*an..but i think that it is harder to achieve.

and i would NEVER advocate raising a child with absolutely no meat products...dairy, that's a different story..i'm not a big fan of dairy..but meat, imo, is essential to human growth and development

and i do think it is cruel to own an animal that is an obligatory carnivore and force it to be vet*an...

the whole "well everything else we do with them is cruel too, then" argument doesn't hold much water with me. we do those things to protect them, not to force them out of being natural because we aren't comfortable with what they do. we make their lives unnatural enough, out of protection, to do it further just because we aren't comfortable feeding a meat eater meat, well that's just wrong.

if you want a vegetarian pet, get a goat, rabbit, iguana, or something like that...cats aren't and should never be vegetarian/vegan.


Answer:
Originally Posted by Candycane
Bridget, I find nothing wrong with feeding a vegan diet if you are meeting the nutritional requirements of your cats. Just the fact that most of us feed kibble is totally unnatural for a cat. And it is having a major impact on health. FLUTD is one of the most common ailments in cats and it is likely caused by the convenience of kibble.
Absolutely right. And male cats are more prone to it, as well, which is why a totally vegan diet can be even trickier. In fact, a vegan cat shouldn't be fed a strictly kibble diet. Generally, cats who have had previous bouts of urinary problems should be monitored extremely closely and testing done periodically to check their urine pH balance to ensure it stays in a good range (6.0 - 6.5 according to one source).

Originally Posted by Candycane
Just out of curiousity, if you did switch your cats to a vegan diet, how would you compensate for the taurine...or has your research shown that they do not need it? And what type of food would you feed? I know that Wysong makes a vegan formula but would you feed that? Or would it be more of a raw diet?
Oh, they definitely need taurine. If they're deprived of taurine, they would lose their sight and develop heart disease. Likewise, without Vitamin A they'll go deaf as well as suffer a host of other health problems.

I'm still in the early stages of research and reading discussions of people for and against a vegan diet for cats. So I haven't made any concrete plans yet. I'm not sure if I would go with a commercial vegan brand (I'd have to examine the different foods before deciding) or would make my own food and add supplements such as Vegecat pH and VegeYeast to it. I am toying with the idea right now of feeding them their normal meat diet and also offering them veg and legumes alongside to see if they'd even have a taste for it.

Originally Posted by najiwench
and i would NEVER advocate raising a child with absolutely no meat products...dairy, that's a different story..i'm not a big fan of dairy..but meat, imo, is essential to human growth and development

and i do think it is cruel to own an animal that is an obligatory carnivore and force it to be vet*an...
That's your opinion and you are definitely entitled to it - I respect your opinion. But I absolutely disagree with the first statement, and possibly the second statement. Regarding the second statement, I honestly can't see a cat being successfully "forced" to adopt a vegan diet. We all know that we can't force a cat to eat something it doesn't want to, and we also know that it's detrimental to a cat's health to deprive it of food for more than 24 hours. It's doubtful, then, that people would starve their cats into accepting a vegan diet. I just don't see it, myself.

we do those things to protect them, not to force them out of being natural because we aren't comfortable with what they do. we make their lives unnatural enough, out of protection, to do it further just because we aren't comfortable feeding a meat eater meat, well that's just wrong.
As I said above, though -- it may not be simply a matter of ethics that motivates people to explore the possibility of a vegan diet. There can also be the health aspect of it. I've been reading that cats can thrive on a vegan diet and can be much healthier for it. That's something to look into further, I think. Personally, I'm not thinking about switching my cats to a vegan diet simply because I'm not comfortable with feeding them meat. That's a very broad statement to make.

I believe that in the above situations research should be done before condemning something outright. If one doesn't do the research and talk to people who have experience, how can one say with certainty that their bellief is correct? I'm doing research on vegan cat diets because I honestly don't know for sure and want to reserve judgment until I do know.


Answer:
I think the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind here. Dogs and cats have been perfectly happy and healthy with meat in their diets, so why change it?