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I'm copying Pickles's post into this new thread, which is more appropriate for the debating of this issue. As stated in the original thread under 'Promoting Animal Welfare' twice, it wasn't the place for the debate and it was suggested that the 'Controversial' section would be more appropriate. Since nobody else took the hint, I'm moving it over here myself so the original thread can be devoted solely to the purpose of my original post - information about the demonstrations taking place around the world. So here you go. Debate to your heart's content. Or as they say in the Maritimes, fill yer boots.

While I'm against inhumane slaughter of ANY creature in that capacity, and don't agree with the clubbing of say baby seals or the clubbing of seals for furr I can see both sides to this.
Debbie keeps bringing meat into this because some people are sealing for the meat. You can ignore that fact all you want, and try to make it about the sale of furrs and killing for the sake of killing. But there are families who rely on the hunt to suppliment their incomes because they're poverty stricken, and the consumption of seal meat. And no, maybe it isn't commercially viable. But as far as I'm concerned anybody who kills their own food (humanely) and takes only what they need isn't doing a bad thing. Afterall, many would argue that is what we started doing in this world.
And there was a story that some sealers won't be doing the hunt this year because of their allotted share. It's not just willy nilly kill as you please. Each area is allowed a percentage. So, 2% of that population might be safe from death, because only fishermen from that area are permitted to hunt there.
I feel for many fishermen. As a media person, I can tell you that some media outlets will take the worst possible footage they're allowed to show you in order to make it look bad. The saying is "If it bleeds it leads" meaning that's how you get a lead story.
There are two sides to every coin. I respect you Banshee for your beliefs about the seals. But I do think that knowing how things work first hand can help. I'm not saying you should go out and see a seal be killed. Or that you should meet a family who needs the money from pelts, and who consume seal meat. But I think you shouldn't discount that side of things. It's an unfair way to look at things.
Pickles, I understand and respect your point of view, but I think you are also lacking in the full details of the seal hunt, just as you suggest that I am not in full possession of the facts. Just as the media and animal rights groups supposedly skew the facts to suit their ends, do you not think the government and pro-hunt groups are doing exactly the same thing? The glaring lie that stands out for me is the allegation by the government years ago that the seals had to be culled because they were responsible for the declining cod stocks. Lo and behold years later DFO finally admits that this was not true - the seals are not after all responsible for the declining fish stocks. Rather it was human overfishing. But the damage was done because to this day you'll still find people who believe that lie and still use that as a justification for the seal hunt to continue. DFO claims that the seals killed are self-reliant, independent animals. However, there are plenty of images to attest to the fact that the young are still with their mothers on the ice when they are killed. It is documented that the seals killed are not even capable of swimming. Hardly self-reliant and independent.

I'm not ignoring or disputing the fact that some fishermen hunt seal for the meat. I'm not disputing that a small percentage of the seals killed during the commercial hunt are used for meat and oil. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm ignoring that. However, a much larger percentage is skinned and the pelts taken - nothing else (except the penises, which fetch a handsome price as well in Asia as an aphrodisiac). Nobody can reasonably or legitimately ignore that fact either.

Again -- and how many times must I say this -- I'm not talking about the Innuit or Mr. Joseph O'Flaherty going out hunting seal in a humane manner in order to put food on his family's table. I'm talking about the commercial seal hunt. It's a mistake to mix that scenario with the commercial hunt scenario, and I have to say this -- I think it's an extremely lame argument used by the hunt supporters to muddy the issue. While it's true that I don't like the idea of hunting for meat full-stop, whether it be seal, moose or deer, again, that's a separate issue entirely for me.

It is a fact that in the commercial seal hunt the meat is rarely used due to its low value. It is a fact that the commercial seal hunt is all about the pelts and that the profits come solely from the pelts and penises. It is a fact that the hunt is inhumane and sealers are not ensuring the seals are dead before skinning them. It is a fact that these seals are beaten and skinned right in front of other seals who have no escape, as they are too young to even swim. It is a fact that the pups are attacked and the mothers beaten or shot for having the completely natural response of trying to protect their young. It is a fact that it's been documented that 42% of seals are skinned before they are confirmed dead and unable to feel pain. It is a fact that regulations put in place by the Canadian government to ensure the hunt is humane are not being followed or enforced. It is a fact that seals are sentient beings capable of fear and pain, and the hunt is therefore inhumane in its present form. These are not little fantasies dreamed up by media or animal rights groups. That seems to be a convenient and comforting argument by hunt supporters (and when all else fails, they pull out the tired allegations that all animal rights people are terrorists ). These are facts that can't be logically disputed.

I find it extremely difficult to believe, looking at the images I have seen throughout the years, that the hunt is humane. But then again, maybe all those photos were "photoshopped" or altered in some way to make it look worse than it is. Maybe it's a huge conspiracy to hoodwink people into actually giving a damn about something for a change. Now there's a thought.

I'm not suggesting that the seal hunt be banned and to hell with the sealers, and neither are the anti-hunt organizations. The fate of fishermen and sealers is a legitimate concern. Animal rights and conservation groups have been calling on the government to consider alternatives to the hunt - License buy-back schemes, eco-tourism, etc. Suggestions have been put forth as to how fishermen and sealers may be able to make their living in other, more humane, sustainable and lucrative ways. However, the government hasn't even taken those suggestions into consideration. They refuse to consider the possibility that there may be a better way to monitor the seal population and create a viable income for fishermen.

And yes, I do comprehend the concept of limits. I didn't say the sealers go out and "willy nilly" start clobbering until there is nothing left to beat and skin. I am fully aware of the new quotas set this year, in fact. However, were you aware that the quotas are not always followed? Were you aware that in 2002 the quota was exceeded by 37,000 seals? Again, in 2004 sealers ignored the quota, killing 16,000 more seals than was permitted? Further, the quota takes into account only the seals that are killed and recovered. It doesn't count the seals that were wounded and slipped under the water to die. Add to that the number of seals killed illegally and in unregulated areas and the toll goes even higher. So the statistics of seals killed each year is not entirely accurate, you could say. Quotas are not written in stone, obviously.

I'd like to address one common argument the pro-hunt people seem to repeat time and time again. They criticize the anti-hunt people because they use photos of the whitecoats in their campaigns when it is illegal to kill the whitecoats. Yes, it's true - the killing of whitecoats (and bluebacks which is the name given to the gray seal pups) was prohibited in 1987. But bear this in mind. The hunt begins shortly after those whitecoats have molted their fur. Bear in mind that the babies molt at about two weeks of age. The seals being killed during the first stage of the hunt are between 12 - 20 or 30 days old. Not whitecoats, admittedly, but still extremely young and unable to protect themselves or even swim away, as they've not yet learned how to swim. What exactly is the difference between a seal at 10 days old and 20 days old? The absence of the white coat - that's about it.

Besides, these groups are not relying on the whitecoat images to capture people's hearts. There are plenty of photos published of "ragged jacket" seals that have lost their baby fur. There are plenty of images of adult seals. But again, it's just a matter of people seeing only what they want to see.

No matter where a person stands on the issue of hunting in general and killing humanely for food, I honestly do not see how anyone can insist that the commercial seal hunt is humane. Furthermore, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone who has admitted that the hunt is cruel continues to justify and support it in its present form.


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yup i agree its the commercial and forgein sealers that need to be made accountable for their actions. doing what they are doing is very very wrong.
leave the friggin fishing, sealing to the our NS and NFLD locals who know what the frig they are doing and NEED the income and dont club baby seals just for the fur. the seal hunt is unfortunately needed to help keep populations of seals under control due to humans killing off natural predators.
i hate these stupid animal rights activist in faraway states(or countries) mouthing off about stuff they know nothing about and stirring people up. even paul mccartney informed himself and learn the both sides of the story when he came to see what it was all about.
if you think the seal hunt alone is the only thing that needs attention as far as animal cruelty then think again. what about the millions of animals that are slautered for meat and the conditions they are kept in before their demise?


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I apologize for not catching the request to move that to this forum. The computer I was using froze up. When I got back online, I thought I'd read all the first page posts.


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LOL Sorry never heard that one "fill yer boots" sounds pretty sarcastic to me.
I don't expect to change anyones mind, we have many freedoms in Canada.I am just as proud to be Canadian as Newfoundlander, and so very grateful to have been born here over any place else.
We have done things very different in the past and learn and change to make all things better.We are not cave men any more.
I am not going to keep repeating myself, and am glad the gath is no longer used to kill. It was the best of it's time.
I have hunted all my life, raised as my Dads #1 son, first born.
I don't know about the PEI or the Iceland seal hunt,what they use and what they throw away.
I can tell you this, it's not that way here.
Lady Heather and Sir Paul didn't even know where in Canada they were.
They were not in Newfoundland, but PEI, and speaking to the sealers in PEI with their gaths.
We have seals coming ashore in places never before seen, there are so many.
DFO say it's not the only or main reason for the cod stocks dropping, but it is having a big impact here. I guess you'd have to talk to the people on the water rather than those behind a desk.
As for how it makes me look, I hope I look just as good as you for standing up for what I belive in and respecting others views, with out thinking their not worthy because they feel differentlty than I.
I have many family and friends that sport their mink coats, and crocadile purses, knowing my take on it. I love them just the same.
Some folks are just better able to articulate themselves in writing and I envy that.
I am pro seal hunt, still wishing there was a way that would please all,but as there isn't, {other than stopping the hunt}, I feel our NL seal hunt is humane, justified, we consume all but the toe nails, it is a major portion of the fishermens income, and the seal herd is 5 times larger now than in 2000, and has to be controled.
What do you think these seals eat?
I don't think any less of anyone because they don't agree.


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fill yer boots seems to be a nova scotian thing its like saying "whatever blows your skirt up" LOL


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Originally Posted by Debbie
What do you think these seals eat?
Actually, harp seals eat a wide variety of marine species. Not only cod, but also the natural predators of cod. If the harp seal is hunted to near- or full-extinction (which is highly likely especially now considering that the ice floes have broken up) the cod will be no better off, believe me.

The cod stocks dropped not because of the seals, but rather due to years of gross mismanagement on the part of Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The harp seal being responsible for the depletion of the cod stocks was a myth created by DFO years ago to justify the unjustifiable.

I wonder if perhaps you're seeing seals coming ashore because of the deteriorating ice situation this year due to global warming. It's not unknown for seals to come ashore to give birth in such times, which unfortunately makes them vulnerable not only to licensed sealers but also unlicensed citizens who see a quick way to make a few bucks (indeed, this has happened in Nova Scotia before). In such a case, it doesn't necessarily mean an increase in the population, but rather loss of nursery grounds.

While it's true that some may have evolved and found better ways to do things, the sad fact remains that the commercial seal hunt has not evolved. The club is still the predominant weapon used in the first phase of the hunt to kill the ragged-coats. And there have been cases reported of sealers kicking the pups in the face. To my mind, that is definitely not progress. I suppose it's one step up from caveman to sociopath

Christina, I doubt these people are ignorant of the evils of factory farming, etc. In fact, the more high-profile people who are anti-hunt are also involved in other animal/marine life issues across the globe. Look at Brigitte Bardot -- the press portrayed her as a "former sex kitten". She was, yes, but she was almost singlehandly responsible for banning the killing of whitecoats after she visited the floes to pose with them, and is also involved in animal rights/welfare issues around the world. Not many reports actually referred to the Brigitte Bardot Foundation.

Unfortunately, sometimes individuals do not have the time or resources to support every worthwhile cause, so they choose one or two closest to their heart and devote all of their resources accordingly. Personally, I do not think a person can be faulted for that, or accused of being ignorant of other causes.

In light of the ice floes having broken up and many of the pups having gone missing, presumably drowned, I find it revealing that DFO hasn't rethought its quota, which it claims is calculated in order to maintain a "sustainable" hunt. To continue with the current quota after the population has suffered huge losses and the effects global warming will have on their nursery grounds in the years to come, in my opinion is, at best, downright incompetent and at worse, a telltale sign of the true intention of DFO's intentions - to get rid of the harp seal, long considered a nuisance by the fishermen.

I don't think less of someone simply because they don't agree with my way of thinking, either. I do, however, have to wonder about people who stubbornly insist that the commercial hunt is humane given the images and eyewitness accounts to the contrary that are freely available on the internet. Having said that, people who stubbornly stick to the excuses of "tradition" and "freedom" (as the government is doing) to justify something too brutal and horrific for justification, do indeed diminish themselves in my eyes.


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Has it started Banshee? I feel so sad I think the ONLY humane way to kill these animals would be a bullet to the head. Anything other is purely barbaric.


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Unfortunately, it started at dawn today. Because of the poor ice conditions, the sealers have had to go in search of the seals. According to a report less than an hour ago, seals are being clubbed on small pans of ice off the Cabot Strait in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Protesters are concerned that the ice is melting quickly and there will be even more pups drown, as they haven't yet learned to swim. DFO isn't "concerned", though, because they haven't seen any bodies floating in the water. Isn't their concern touching?

Just think of it now, everybody, right now while you're eating your lunch, or shopping with friends, or having a few drinks, or going to a film, or curling up on the sofa to watch television, or putting your children to bed and reading them a story, there are defenceless seals too young to escape or to fight back, being beaten with a club with a hook on the end and skinned alive, crying out in pain and fear - in front of each other. And it's happening in your own country. If the thought of that horrifies you, I encourage you to write to the prime minister and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to voice your opposition to the hunt. They would like everyone to believe that the majority of Canadians support the hunt and it's only the international celebrities that oppose it, when in actual fact it's just a small group that supports the hunt. The majority of Canadians are opposed to the hunt but unfortunately haven't raised their voices loud enough to be heard.

I cannot even begin to describe the sorrow I'm feeling today at the thought of the carnage that is happening right now - not far from where I'm living. But at the same time I'm heartened by the surge of support we've received from the international community, as well as the growing numbers of Canadians who are speaking out, and the commitment people have made not to give up until the commercial seal hunt is ended. And it WILL end, whether the government and the sealers like it or not. Not soon enough to save the seals this year, admittedly, but I have every hope that next year there will be no slaughter.

The "hunters", in my opinion, are extremely shortsighted. As long as they stubbornly insist on continuing with this slaughter, the profits they may gain from selling the seal pelts will be dwarfed by the losses suffered by the boycott of Canadian seafood. When there's nobody left in the world who will buy their seafood and they've hunted the seals to extinction, they will have no means of support whatsoever. But then, I suppose they can always find something else to slaughter.


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For information on how you can join the effort to stop the commercial seal hunt, please click on the following links:

http://www.sealhunt.ca/Resources/Thr...ngs_To_Do.html
http://www.seashepherd.org/seals/sea...ou_can_do.html
http://www.harpseals.org
http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/p...FIqE&b=1477703
http://www.savecanadianseals.org/action.html
http://www.hsus.org


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I wrote a letter today opposing the seal hunt and emailed it...hopefully there will not be another slaughter of these innocent animals next year.