Question:
Found this interesting article regarding the effects of gluten on animals. Thought some people might be interested. I don't agree with some of his food recommendations but thought other stuff was good "food for thought".

http://dogtorj.tripod.com/id32.html

Answer:
The gluten article was interesting but like you said some of his food recommendations are just wrong. How can he recommend foods like Iams, Eukanuba, Nutro and IVD/Royal Canin? I think maybe he's selling those at his clinic.

Answer:
He just doesn't know any better.


All that glue talk was kinda gross though.

Answer:
I do know better.

Please keep in mind that I wrote the list you are referring to for the masses, with the vast majority of people not being willing to do much more than feed grocery store or, at best, pet store foods. Sadly, it has been like pulling teeth to get my clients to go to the pet stores to buy their food, much less home-cook for them. There are no grocery store brands of kibble that meet my criteria of no gluten (wheat, barley, rye), dairy, soy or corn. At best, the grocery brands have corn.

So, that list was meant to help those unwilling clients to chose between the lesser of the evils out there. The rest of the site goes into the details of which foods are much more preferable IF the reader is unwilling to use home-prepared foods. Nutro, for example, makes a decent kibble in their Natural Choice line (not the Max!!!) that has been integral in the recovery of numerous of my client's pets. Just getting these patients off of the "big 4" has produced miraculous results. And the IVD/Royal Canin should not be compared to the other diets made by Royal Canin, most fo which I cannpt recommend. The IVD foods are made in a dedicated facility that only makes the LIDs (limited ingredient diets) and are not mass produced by companies like MenuFoods or other pet foods giants in the US.

The debates over which pet foods are the best has been an interesting thing to observe over the past 7 years. I have been writing on numerous forums during that time and seen these discussions get quite heated. But, when I see that their choices include foods that contain any of the "big 4", I immediately dismiss them. There are plenty out there that do not contain any of these unnatural and potentially devastating ingredients.

So, what are you guys feeding??? Here is my running list of "clean" kibbles for those who want to use this type of food.

I hope this helps,
John


1) Flint River Ranch- Lamb, Millet and Rice Formula For Food Sensitive Dogs.

2) Flint River Ranch- Trout And Sweet Potato NOTE: No longer recommended do to "granola" ingredient.

3) Timberwolf Organics- Dakota™ Bison Canid Formula

4) Canidae and Felidae

5) Natura California Naturals

6) Canine Caviar Lamb & Pearl Millet Adult Dog Food

7) Canine Caviar Chicken & Pearl Millet Adult Dog Food

8) Dick Van Patten Natural Balance Duck and Potato, Venison and Brown Rice, and Sweet Potato and Fish Formulas

9) Eagle Pack Holistic Select®Duck Meal & Oatmeal Formula

10) Eagle Pack Holistic Select® Lamb Meal & Rice Formula

11) Eukanuba Response KO and FP

12) PMI Nutrition Exclusive™ Lamb & Rice Adult Formula

13) Life's Abundance Premium Health Food for Dogs

14) Life’s Abundance Weight-Loss Formula for Adult Dogs

15) Life’s Abundance Premium Health Food for Cats

16) Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice

17) Solid Gold Barking at the Moon

18) IVD/Royal Canin- L.I.D.s (potato-based diets)

19) Lambaderm Adult by NaturalLife (now at Walmart)

20) Lambaderm Puppy by NaturalLife (now at Walmart)

Answer:
Didn't see Orijen on your list. It's a great grain free kibble.
Why don't vets stock some of the better choices?

Cindy

Answer:
I'm feeding Canidae lamb and rice mixed with Barking at the Moon for one dog, and the other dog is doing amazingly well on 1/2 Canidae L&R and 1/2 Evo RM. Both are finally healthy and problem free.

I think you should push Canidae more and Lambaderm and IVD a little less. Canidae is becoming widely available and it's one of the least expensive holistic foods out there, and it's FAR, FAR better in quality than either Lambaderm or IVD.

While we're on the subject and we have you around, I also disagree with bits of this article:
http://dogtorj.tripod.com/id38.html

Originally Posted by DogtorJ.com’s Elimination Diet
1) Wheat, barley, rye - ALL of them. (including bread, snack crackers,treats, wheat/gluten, etc.)

2) Dairy products - ALL of them. (including milk, cheese, whey, casein, dried skim milk, etc.)

3) Soy – ALL (This is also a major problem in people. See www.mercola.com‘s Soy Index Page)

4) Corn- ALL (including corn gluten meal)- This is important in asthma, pain syndromes, and epilepsy.

5) Beef and fish - (only if allergy symptoms are present/persist. These are “secondary“ allergies.)

6) Artificial preservatives and colors - (You want to see “preserved with vit.E“)

Chicken and Lamb allergies are becoming more and more common. Rather than saying beef and fish should be eliminated, you don't think it would be better to recommend "novel" proteins instead? Sure, if somebody has fed beef or fish in the past, they're bad choices, but if a dog has been on chicken and lamb with problems (which is becoming more and more common because more and more dogs are fed chicken and lamb), beef and fish then become good alternate protein sources, no?

And IMO, beef and fish are nowhere NEAR as bad as artificial preservatives. Maybe you intend for your ingredients to all be equal in 'badness' but as it comes across as a list, it seems beef and fish are worse that artificial preservatives, most of which have been proven to be carcinogenic among having many other horrible long term effects.

JMO.. Not meant to be argumentative or anything.

Answer:
Here's orijen's site if you want to have a look. You may not have seen it because it's Canadian.
http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/orijen/


Has any of your research led you to menadione sodium bisulfate complex? Personally, I don't recommend foods that have it.

Answer:
Flies in, flies out. Love to know whether he is actually a practicing DVM.

And I'm not sure I agree with him about food choices. Look at the number of people on this board who were told by their Vet to feed the X brand for "medical" reasons the Vet kept on shelf and did so trusting ( in most cases) in their Vet's expertise in nutrition. I think most people if told by thier Vet that X Kibble from the grocery/ hardware/ feed store is significantly shortening your dog's life and/or causing them great physical distress, would look for whatever alternative their Vet could offer.

I spoke with a guy in the park tonight about his boxer puppy, he was THRILLED to learn there are alternatives to the X diet prescribed by the Vet (poor skinny little thing....)

Sorry DogtorJ ~ I'm not buying your story.

Answer:
and why only Timberwolf Organics - Dakota Bison?. The Elk & Salmon is identical other than elk instead of bison, also the Ocean Blue formula ?

I would also like to see you expand your recommendations to consider other issues other than the gluten. IMO, some of the recommended products that you name may be gluten/dairy free but arenot the best for nutritional value. Perhaps you could/should lean harder towards the higher quality products and provide information on how people can understand labels.

Answer:
Originally Posted by clm
Didn't see Orijen on your list. It's a great grain free kibble.
Why don't vets stock some of the better choices?

Cindy

Hi Cindy,

Orijin does appear to be a great food. I do not have any personal experience with it but it certainly meets the criteria and I like their philosophy. I just noticed that it is now available in the US so I will definitely add it to the list. Much of the pet food part of the site has been geared toward those living in the US but I do plan to add more international information.

Thanks!
John

Answer:
Originally Posted by Prin
I think you should push Canidae more and Lambaderm and IVD a little less. Canidae is becoming widely available and it's one of the least expensive holistic foods out there, and it's FAR, FAR better in quality than either Lambaderm or IVD.

Chicken and Lamb allergies are becoming more and more common. Rather than saying beef and fish should be eliminated, you don't think it would be better to recommend "novel" proteins instead?

And IMO, beef and fish are nowhere NEAR as bad as artificial preservatives.

Hi Prin,

You are right on all counts. I personally believe that Canidae is a great food but, again, I have very little personal experience with it. I have a few hospital clients feeding it but not many at this time. I DO feed my own personal and resident hospital cats the Felidae and they are thriving on it. So, if the dog foods are as good as the cat foods, I am a huge fan.

Again, the first seven years of my studies and clinical applications have focused on the elimination of the "big 4" (gluten, dairy soy and corn). Miracles have happened simply getting them out of the diet. Now I am focusing on making the diets more complete, which includes adding veggies, fruits, fresh proteins and select supplements (e.g. omega threes) to whatever diet the owner has settled upon.

No commercial dry kibble can provide all of the essential nutrients, especially the more delicate phytonutrients and omega threes. The processing belies that. However, I do believe that some manufacturers do a much better job than others and you may be totally right that Canidae is more nutritionally complete than Lambaderm but that is kinda hard to prove, isn't it? And, the point is almost moot when most owners are seriously shooting themselves in the foot by giving treats and table food that violates the very elimination diet with which these "clean" foods are compliant.

So, my focus has to remain on the elimination diet while I try to help make these diets more complete. Again, it is a sad fact that the vast majority of owners do not know nor do many of them care to do better. It is a very tiny minority of owners that ever get on a pet forum like this in search of real answers.

Therefore, we must keep our perspective. We certainly NEED people like you and the others here to keep reaching for that brass ring. That's how we will ultimately do our best. But we also have to remember what the average pet owner is like and think about how we can best help the masses and those poor pets caught in the middle. The Lambaderm is a relatively inexpensive "clean" food that is sold through the most successful store chain in history. This is a HUGE step in the right direction. Money is a serious issue in these troubled days.

And you are very right about lamb and chicken allergies. The site does explain this phenomenon. At the time of the first compilation of this pet food handout, beef was the third most common dog food allergen behind wheat and dairy and fish was the third most common cat food allergen. These are secondary allergens that result from the villous and GI barrier damage done by the "big 4". We know this to be fact in human medicine. Celiacs are notoriously allergic to numerous foods due to the condition of their GI tract. In humans, that third position is held by eggs,typically the first complex protein fed to a child that has been raised on a cow milk or soy formula and given some gluten in the form of teething biscuits. Many have received all 4 of the "big 4" (with corn syrup and solids being part of some formulas) before
being given some scrambled eggs. It is not uncommon then for the immune system to react to the presence of the eggs and form an allergy to them. Again, this is the known origin of these secondary food allergens.

BUT, when I started seeing more and more chicken allergies, I began researching what they were feeding chickens and found just what I suspected. They are pouring the wheat and soy to chickens, so much so that we now have celiacs reacting to the gluten in chicken flesh. Yes, the lectins of gluten, soy and corn go right into the flesh of simple-stomached animals (whereas the fermentation process of ruminants helpes to destroy these harmful lectins).

Lamb and rice are now common allergens for the same reason. Most lamb and rice foods contain one or more of the "big 4", which do the gut damage resulting in the formation of secondary allergies to the lamb and rice. It is almost diabolical. If these pets were started out on pure lamb and rice and never given the multitudes of damaging treats available, they would never become allergic to lamb and rice. But sadly, most of the puppy foods are the absolute worst, having added grains to boost the energy and protein (errrrh). So, I do a lot of food allergy testing now.

And of course you are right about the beef and fish being less of an overall problem than preservatives UNLESS the pet is horribly allergic to beef or fish. Then the prednisone and other drugs used to cover up the allergies are much worse than the preservatives in the dog food.

You make very good points!

John

Answer:
Originally Posted by Prin
Here's orijen's site if you want to have a look. You may not have seen it because it's Canadian.
http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/orijen/


Has any of your research led you to menadione sodium bisulfate complex? Personally, I don't recommend foods that have it.


Thanks again for the link. I will be adding this to my site asap. The food is now available in Florida, Georgia, Oregon and Washington. That's great!

Yes, I have read a fair amount about the menadione issue and certainly wish it was not in any of the foods. There are people out there fighting this particular battle so hopefully that will change. The profession will have to be convinced that it is a real health concern first. I believe in the old "Where's there's smoke there's fire" approach, so when given a chance, I would opt to feed a food that does not have it, such as Orijin.

Presently, I am much more concerned about the basic ingredients now that I understand what the lectins (http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html ) of the "big 4" are capable of but we DO still need to keep reaching for that brass ring.

Answer:
Originally Posted by mummummum
Flies in, flies out. Love to know whether he is actually a practicing DVM.

And I'm not sure I agree with him about food choices. Look at the number of people on this board who were told by their Vet to feed the X brand for "medical" reasons the Vet kept on shelf and did so trusting ( in most cases) in their Vet's expertise in nutrition.

Sorry DogtorJ ~ I'm not buying your story.

Sorry to hear that. But what part of "the story" are you not buying? The fact that the gluten, dairy, soy and corn are the most damaging foods that can be put into a simple-stomached animal's body or the fact that I have dedicated my life to helping people and pets with the same medical problems that I suffered from for years and years...those problems that are now GONE due to the application of what I now spend my time off writing about?

I understand your skepticism. You are right to test every bit of information that comes your way. But people need some knowledge (and wisdom) to be able to do this accurately every time they hear something new. I am trying to provide people with some basic medical knowledge from which they can build a new foundation to use in their testing. And it is working.

I compiled this list over time and sell only the IVD out of pure necessity. I use it as a "prescription" to help those "last opinions" that come in on a regular basis now. Yes, there are second, third, fourth and "last"opinions, the latter being "Fix him or we are putting him to sleep". Putting these troubled pets on the novel protein/potato-based diets is the single-most important thing I can do.

It is fact that the "big 4" can do the harm that I describe amd that their lectins are involved in innumerble medical conditions.Therfore, it is logical that their removal will produce medical miracles, which they are doing every day. Have you been to my testimonials section? Have you been to the testimonial section of www.dadamo.com or the Success stories of www.gfcfdiet.com. These are phenomenal events happening in people's lives every single day.

As far as blowing in and out, I am a single-man practitioner (yes, areal vet) in a very busy practice (Google me and you'll find my address) who is also writing on numerous forums (both pet and professional), doing podcasts and TV interviews, giving lectures at both veterinary and human medical conferences, answering countless Emails every day (many between office cals), raising a family (teenagers!!!), and trying to celebrate my 26th wedding anniversary today.

I came to this Forum after finding my name mentioned on this thread, something I do after doing a Google search for "dogtorj" occasionally. So, I hope you will be able to understand it when I say that I cannot dedicate a whole lot of time to any one site. I will do my best, though.

John

Answer:
Originally Posted by TeriM
and why only Timberwolf Organics - Dakota Bison?. The Elk & Salmon is identical other than elk instead of bison, also the Ocean Blue formula ?

I would also like to see you expand your recommendations to consider other issues other than the gluten. IMO, some of the recommended products that you name may be gluten/dairy free but arenot the best for nutritional value. Perhaps you could/should lean harder towards the higher quality products and provide information on how people can understand labels.

First of all, Timberwolf has greatly expanded their line of foods since I started this project. I cannot possibly keep up with all of the additions that these pet food companies are making. I add to the list as things are brought to my attention. That's why I call it a "running" list.

But, another element to this is the use of these diets to control epilepsy, which is my "specialty" and the main thing that I am working on in both veterinary and human medicine. The list was first designed to be one for those people looking for the ideal diet to feed their epileptic pets and although there are many diets out there that are free of the "big 4", there are many of those that a newly diagnosed epileptic could not eat, due to the other grains, seeds, kelp, and spirulina added. You will have to read about "the GARD" (the glutamate-aspartate restricted diet) on my site to fully undertand this.

Once an epileptic pet has been on a "cean" diet long enough, then many of them can go back to diets that contain things like oats, seeds, spirulina, etc. But initially, they need severe restriction of the amino acid glutamate, the parent protein in MSG, to stop their seizures. The same "clean" diet then results in the healing of their gut and the subsequent return of normal liver, kidney, brain, and immune system function so that they can enjoy a successful long-term dietary management of their condition.

The link of celiac disease and epilepsy is now well-established in human medicine and I am simply trying to establish it as mainstream in my own profession. BUT, gluten is not the only culprit. Cow milk, soy and corn are also major players.

So, I will always focus on gluten and the others and chose a "clean" diet over one with perceived higher quality because I know and have witnessed what these lectins are capable of. The fact is that it is much more important that we eliminate the harmful things than it is that we eat a perfectly balanced diet. Of course, it is most ideal to do both.

I hope this helps,
John

Answer:
People teaching vets, vets teaching people, all around benefiting to PETS!

Really, I praise everyone who takes the time to share info here

Answer:
Interesting!! I think maybe Dogtorj does know something. I have seizures and my doctor wouldn't do proper testing for celiac disease even though I had all of the symptoms, so I ended up going gluten free without his permission. Anyway a couple of weeks ago my b/f got a soy ice cream for me that had previously been gluten free in a slightly different flavour. BIG MISTAKE, I said what the heck its been a year and maybe I wasn't really having a problem with wheat as much as I thought. OMG you don't want to know what my stomach did and the next day I had a very bad seizure. I'm not diagnosed yet but I definitely think there could be a link to the gluten and possibly casein. Very progressive of you to take that view and extend it into veterinary medicine.



Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us and Happy 26th Anniversary!!!!

Answer:
Originally Posted by otter
People teaching vets, vets teaching people, all around benefiting to PETS!

...And doctors teaching vets and vets teaching doctors. After 7 years of intensive literature research on both human and veternary medicine, I have realized that if doctors spent as much time studying veterinary medicine as I have studying human medicine, we would all be a lot further down the road than we are. There is sooooo much to learn from studying dogs and cats as the diseases are so similar, just accelerated in time. Of course, that is why medical researchers do study dogs but the MD in the field doesn't benefit from seeing those patterns and similarities. They often get their info from the pharmaceutical rep.

The specialization of medicine has blurred their view of the big picture. Vets get to see their patients from birth to death, dealing with everything from toe nail trims to brain tumors. This is invaluable as the patterns we see speak volumes about the causes.

And the "lay people"(e.g. breeders, concerned owners) ARE also invaluable. Vets do need them, despite the fact that many of them feel that they don't. That is another reason I write on these forums...to gain information and inspiration as to what to study next.

So, I join in your praise for those who share here.

John

Answer:
Originally Posted by Maya
Interesting!! I have seizures and my doctor wouldn't do proper testing for celiac disease even though I had all of the symptoms, so I ended up going gluten free without his permission. Anyway a couple of weeks ago my b/f got a soy ice cream for me that had previously been gluten free in a slightly different flavour. BIG MISTAKE, I said what the heck its been a year and maybe I wasn't really having a problem with wheat as much as I thought. OMG you don't want to know what my stomach did and the next day I had a very bad seizure. I'm not diagnosed yet but I definitely think there could be a link to the gluten and possibly casein. Very progressive of you to take that view and extend it into veterinary medicine.

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us and Happy 26th Anniversary!!!!

Hi Maya,

Thanks for the . The 26 years seem like 5 minutes......under water. Just kidding, of course. It's been great. Now about those teenagers...LOL.

I'm sorry to hear about your episode. Stories like this...involving pets and people...have become quite common. In your case, it may have been the soy itself. Soy is LOADED with glutamate, the neurostimulating amino acid from which they make MSG. You undoubtedly know that MSG and Nutrisweet are capable of triggering seizures. The point of of the GARD is that the foods rich in these non-essential, neuroactive amino acids are capable of doing the same thing as MSG itself. They just take longer to hit the brain after consumption.

Also, the lectins ( http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html ) of gluten, dairy and soy are all capable of doing direct harm to neurons and glial cells, the latter being cells that "nurse" the neurons and control the level of glutamate (the neurotransmitter) at the synapse. So, your GI signs could easily have been, in essence, the warning sign that the seizures were coming, just as I think you are already suspecting. That, of course, is the purpose of GI signs...to warn us that we have eaten something wrong. Kinda falls into the "Duh" category when you think of it, right? And yet, how many heed the warnings of heartburn, gas, IBS/colitis and actually investigate the cause and eliminate the culprit? Most just go to the medicine cabinet, right?

Sounds like you are blessed with some uncommon wisdom when it comes to the gluten, etc. issue. With all of the tests available, the best way to know is still to simply eliminate the stuff and see what happens. There are logical explanations for most negatve blood tests. Celiac researchers are still uncovering the true dynamics of gluten intolerance. The bad news is that lectins do harm all by themselves, without an immune response. The immune response is secondary to that damage. So, you can have those with lectin damage who do not respond "appropriately" immunologically. In other words, not all celiacs are allergic to wheat. Nor will all have villous damage of their gut. Nor will all develop other antibodies to these damaging little proteins. The good news is that MOST will have these things and can be diagnosed properly.

But again, nothing really replaces listening to your body. That's what pets do when they stop eating the food. Now if we can just get vets to stop telling their clients "When they get hungry enough, they'll eat it."

I hope this information helps you,
John

Answer:
It is wonderfull to read such a discussion regarding our pet food products. I think it's great that people are questioning the information out there, and I also think it's great for the person they are questioning to have a say. Cheers to you DoctorJ for addressing everyone questions and comments. Thanks to everyone for the information posted and the sites listed!

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